KABUL EXPRESS

Salman Shahid: You know this is the first time I've worked in an Indian film. It's been a fulfilling experience right from the various places in India I've visited to the fact that this is a 'different' kind of Indian film, from what I've seen. What do you think Hamgam saab?



Hanif Hamgam: Well, Shahid saab it's been a good experience. (laughs) Most of the films that have played and are playing in Afghanistan are Hindi films – over 50% of the population understand Urdu, so it's not a problem. Due to the war happening for the last 30 years, however, we have been plucked out by the roots, and everything has been destroyed…



Shahid: But still, you have a film like Osama! Which has been made by a resident of Kabul!



Hamgam: …and which has won a Golden Globe as well, true. But I'm talking generally about the country. I hope India, Pakistan and Afghanistan work together. I hope we make a lot of films again and can show them abroad, like Indians do their films. I hope we can all unite, possess a world market… and Inshallah… make excellent cinema!



Shahid: The government in Pakistan is not as supportive as the Indian government of the arts. But to fight is in man's nature, and so you have amazing filmmakers like **** ***** fighting to make films like Khamosh paani – which had Kiron Kher, an Indian actress, come to Pakistan to play the lead. However, while pop culture survives, Classical traditional arts are dying out as they don't receive as much government support – as the Indian government provides to it's classical heritage, for instance. Now the rise of pop culture is inevitable – one cannot cry for uniformity, but heritage always breathes via state patronage.



Hamgam: We've had war in our country for over 5000 years. For every 10 years of peace, there's 30 years of war. We've been attacked many times during the British Raj – and they have lost. And so we have never been 'colonialized'. There was a saying that an Afghan is invincible. But the bombings to end the Taliban regime, has shaken our belief in that saying – which is what I mean by being plucked out by the roots. We had a king Amanullah, who in the 1920s had launched a reform programme which if implemented, would have among other things made Afghanistan the first country, mind you, to give women the right to vote. But the British, sensing his power, sponsored a coup to topple him – they were the Taliban of that time. And ironically the Taliban regime recently subjected women of the same country to such oppression. Even during Dawood Khan's rule – which was heavily communist, there were some excellent reforms instituted. These were disbanded for a long time – but now, post the Taliban regime, we are going back to the track of those reforms.



Shahid: But tell me something Hamgam saab, do you think the Taliban are from Pakistan? Because that is the impression being given by the Kabul Express, and an opinion held by many. I feel that is distorted. The Taliban may have been used by Pakistan and the USA – their strong fervour may have been exploited, but they were and are from Afghanistan itself.



Hamgam: Yes. For Afghans may fight against one another, but will kill any foreigner who comes to rule them. But that said, the Talibans played a role in a script. That script was written by Pakistan on being pushed to do so by USA.



Shahid: (laughs)… like a lot of things which were done on being pushed by USA. Nevertheless, that man named Pervez Musharraf may say a lot of untrue things, but what he's saying about the Taliban today is true – they are beyond Pakistan and USA's control. Just like so many problems in India – the North East, for instance – have gone out of control.



Hamgam: One thing though, during the 14 year communist regime, people in Afghanistan were happy. There was work being done towards development. 50 percent of the people wanted communism.



Shahid: Communism and Islam have a strange connection. Technically, a communist has to be an atheist. Yet we've had many a great communist poet, write or politician, whose retained his allegiance to his religion as well – just as communists in India have maintained their religion. Sadat Hasan Manto is one great example – he used to be a neighbour when I was a child, or Sajjad Zaheer, who I'm related to. I have other not so pleasant personal memories… I had gone to study filmmaking in Moscow for four and a half years, and they didn't let me stay on beyond my course for even a day because I was a Pakistani and we were in alliance with the US. One young Uzbek was even intent on killing me because his brother had been beheaded in Pakistan. So one supposes sommunism can be a 'shared ideology' with religion. If you go back to when Pakistan was being made, many from the Jamiyat opposed it, saying they had no need for a country to be made on religion, because Islam was a universal concept. Communism is also a universal concept, I suppose.



Hamgam: Unfortunately, when the communist regime was moved, the 'uprooting' I keep ranting about started. Even literally, all the dry fruit and spice trees, which were essential to our trade were uprooted and the fields destroyed!



Shahid: I think Hamgam saab what the Afghans need the most today is to be united, and not fight amongst one another in their own backyard.



Hamgam: What the Afghans need, Shahid saab, is a Gandhi like India had – who did not fight for a position, or a Jinnah like Pakistan had, who was a national figure. The old Badshah has been re-instated but he couldn't do much even earlier… we notice a lot of problems… problems Pakistan does not have.



Shahid: Pakistan also has problems, come on!



Hamgam: Maybe, but not to the extent that we do… but yes we must change this attitude. We keep fighting among each other – only to turn together on a foreigner who tries to intervene. We need a permanent nationalism.

Shahid: Absolutely! Not an 'eye for an eye' tribal system. Leaders should be determined by vision, not guns.



Hamgam: People who're in power right now, can't do the work they need to. They're too regional for one, and their foreign bank balances are too full of dollars.



Shahid: While the Taliban may have done other wrong, in that sense they did manage to have a united thought, minus any ethnic or regional leaning. Also what they said about forwarding Islam was fine, the problem began when they insisted on defining Islam for everyone!



Hamgam: Arre, people have come to believe all this politics to be bakwaas. They've led people to the dogs! What about your country, Shahid saab, and the American influence therein?



Shahid: Well, Ayub Khan's removal… Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's removal. It is amazing how many things we, being mere actors, come to know of. Let me tell you of this one evening however. I was sitting one evening in Pakistan with a famous social worker and the American Consul General and we brought up this issue of American intervention. The Consul General got up to leave irritatedly, dismissively saying, "Give your selves the credit or discredit for what has happened. It is not important!" And that's the crucial problem of not just America, but the west at large: indifference on the field and ignorance at home.



Hamgam: In our country the poorest village boy will give you his analysis of what the politics is… he hangs on to every word he receives on the radio to give him an idea of whats going on.



Shahid: Because it matters to his life and death, and he doesn't have other 'preoccupations'. The Americans have their burgers, coke and computer games. It's like a rich kid asking his mummy, "Who are these dirty starving people?"



Hamgam: (laughs) And mummy says, "Grow up… maybe then you'll know."



Shahid: (laughs) And then we have American tourists coming down to Afghanistan and Pakistan, looking genuinely befuddled as to why people are hostile, or want to kill them! They haven't the faintest clue! Whereas people in Afghanistan or Pakistan or India do know about the happenings in America in great detail.



Hamgam: But tell me, how much do you think Indians know about Pakistan or Afghanistan?



Shahid: Very little considering how much we know about India. I think there again it's because India is the richer country. The richer country is always more isolated. I often get asked questions about how suppressed freedom of speech is, for instance. People should read the Pakistani newspapers, to see the amount of open criticism the government receives.



Hamgam: In Afghanistan too, I do a TV show called Danger Beat *** in which I openly criticize each and every person in power and his misdeeds. But there has been no film like the one made by Michael Moore, where a government has received criticism while in power. Even Osama was made after the fall of the Taliban regime. But for that our film industry as a whole must be given time to develop.



Shahid: We have had films like **** by ******. Also Kabul Express has a very South Asian viewpoint, which is different from the normal lot of films on the issue, and is quite objective. Yet it isn't totally objective – the partial truth but not the complete one. It is a film made to succeed at the box office after all, and pop culture has the attitude of reinforcing public opinion instead of changing it. Still I see it as a huge effort.



Hamgam: You know, we don't want an external cultural invasion in Afghanistan. We have a very distinct culture – in our villages and towns – we want to keep that. Only the media can, by being responsible, attain this. We don't want our languages to be corrupted, for instance…



Shahid: I think along borders – whether with India or Afghanistan – our cultures are very similar on either sides. But still, if borders have been made, people must understand their purpose. Even many Belgians speak French – But their borders are still respected. Only if this respect is received can one go along building ties.



Masrood Ashini a youngster from International TV of Kabul, with Hanif Hamgam: Having sat through this entire discussion, I want to say something. If a house catches fire, and people either ignore it, or pour in some petrol – either way with the aim of destruction – then the house may be burnt down, but the fire will continue to spread…



Hamgam: Not so far back, this fire spread all the way to New York.